Is Granite having a ‘panic attack?’

Have you noticed all the ads, publicity and letters submitted by “Friends of Liberty” (started by Granite employee Karrie Reuther)? Have you noticed the meetings Granite is holding both in Temecula and Fallbrook?

Could it be the surge of support against the (proposed) Liberty quarry project is beginning to worry them?

Temecula, Murrieta, Rainbow and Fallbrook residents are incensed by the invasion of an open pit strip mine into our communities! There is no way we will let this happen to our hills!

When 60 medical doctors say, “This is bad for the health of the community” and close to 400 businesses and nonprofit groups say, “We don’t want this mine here! This is where we live,” we may have gotten Granite’s attention.

Why else would they spend money on publicity? Could they be having a “panic attack?”

We may not have the money this Goliath of a company has to fight with, but we have what they will never have: people! Thousands and thousands (almost 30,000 by now) of supporters willing to do whatever it takes to stop this quarry.

The people make us what we are: a focused, dedicated group of residents willing to do whatever is necessary to save our community from becoming an industrial area filled with more quarries.

It is simply unacceptable to put a quarry at this location – so close to our homes and our children’s schools.

What can they be thinking?

Oh yes, we care.

Jerri Arganda

Rainbow

103 Responses to "Is Granite having a ‘panic attack?’"

  1. Joe F.   November 23, 2008 at 7:18 am

    Notice our buddy Jake doesn’t post as often? Guess he’s done fighting a loosing battle. And now that the Planning Commission has backed the annexation, the death knell is ringing for the quarry.

    Keep up the fight people…

    Reply
  2. Jake   January 6, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    Hey Joe –

    Was just out making money, being busy. I’m sure I’ll see you in court though – because if Temecula actually pulls off the annexation, I’m sure Granite will have no problem getting a stay..

    BTW Rainbow, it’s FORTY, not FOURTY schools that are NOT under some mysterious threat…

    Reply
  3. Keith in Missouri   March 27, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Hi Everyone
    I don’t live in your area however, I did work for Granite and was told about the quarry (actually, the company wanted me to go up and work there when it opened). People tend to be mislead about quarries. The headline reads Open pit strip mine. This is wrong, it is an Open pit mine not a strip mine. Mining in the US is one of the most heavily regulated industries. There are far more regulation then I would have time to talk about. As a mining engineer and having worked in the quarry industry for more than 10 years and have seen the plans for this mine, I could promise you that Granite Construction (which I DO NOT work for anymore) is going to do there best in keeping a clean operation. Fines that MSHA (Mine Saftey and Health Administration) place on these operation are very heavy, far more heavy than OSHA. Does anyone think that Granite is going to spend millions of dollars to open a mine just to have fines thrown at it. I think the people who oppose the site are thinking of the value of their properties more than what is going to happen to the land scape and I’m not dismissing their thoughts/feeling. However, the quarries that I have worked at HAVE NOT caused home values to decrease. I just wish people educate themselves. Go to a quarry (especially one that is owned by Granite) and see for themselves just how they are ran. Operations like these do several things for the community. They bring in tax revenue, jobs, and small businesses thrive on the sale of parts to these operations. Although, I no longer live there, the NEWS here shows how bad your economy is hurting there and I think the extra revenue could help your community.
    As for the 20 doctors who said that it would be dangerous for the people, PLEASE ask them what are the dangers.

    Reply
  4. Juliet Grossman   April 22, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    Dr Daniel Robbins, a Temecula pediatrician affiliated with Rady Children’s Hospital of San Diego, is the spokesman for the group of 60+ local doctors who have signed on in opposition to the Liberty Quarry project. The specific dangers he has listed in media interviews (Press-Enterprise; Californian) are particulates in the air, higher rates of asthma and more severe asthma symptoms for children who live in the area, and other breathing problems.

    One thing that is very telling is that the doctors who signed on in opposition are LOCAL. They practice here and are concerned about their patients HERE. In media interviews Granite has put forth opinions of doctors who live and work hundreds of miles away or even out of state. Think about it….who has the interests of our own Valley residents in mind.

    Reply
  5. Liz   July 12, 2009 at 1:37 am

    Just drive north on Interstate 15, then head west on Interstate 91 to see what damage gravel trucks will do. I’ve had to replace my windshield, have been close to getting run over by these gravel trucks many times. My new windshield is already pitted from all of the sand and rocks that come flying out of these trucks.

    Put a quarry in my overgrown, overcrowded backyard? No Way!
    Stick it out in the desert away from the masses where it belongs.

    Reply
  6. ladeda   July 18, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    No one in their right mind wants a Granite Quarry in this area.
    As for the attitiude "well, there’s nothing that can be done to stop it", that’s incorrect.
    Wal Mart’s are stopped, (unfortunately not in Temecula), and other wrongs can be righted…it takes action and energy,and people who truly care enough to fight the good fight.

    Reply
  7. Bob F   July 26, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    Liberty Granite Quarry near Temecula

    The Need of the Many vs. the Greed of the Few:
    Need:
    Clean Air
    Open Space
    Aesthetically Pleasing Environment
    Save Habitat for Wildlife, and Animal Pathways
    Less Freeway Congestion
    Safety from large Gravel Trucks
    Protection from Noise and Dust at Pechanga Resort and Golf Course and Temecula Creek Inn Resort and Golf Course and Surrounding Area.
    Protect Santa Rosa Plateau Ecological Reserve, Santa Margarita River Ecological Reserve and Environmental Research, and De Luz cohesiveness
    Save fuel by putting the quarry near the gravel needs

    Greed
    Money in the pockets for Liberty Quarry

    Unanswered Questions:

    100 Jobs? They won

    Reply
  8. A. Reginald Watts MD FRCS(C)   August 6, 2009 at 1:12 am

    It’s difficult to tell whether Jake is a fool or a shill for Granite!
    Jake, you talk about all the jobs that Granite will supposedly produce. A hundred and a few is not that many. And the taxes too. Let’s look at the jobs that Granite may well cost. Abbott/Giuidant employs around 3200. They make catheters that have to go into a patient’s bloodstream. Any contamination by the dust that Granite will kick up is unacceptable in such a product. And if you don’t think Granite will kick up significant dust you have your head in some dark cavity! Abbott has two options to save their work – spend millions on filtration that will prevent dust from entering their environment, or relocate. And Temecula runs the risk of losing a net of 3100 jobs. And these pay much more, and produce more taxes and business, than the low paying jobs in the mining/quarrying business.
    Then there is the potential health risk. One case of silicosis is
    not worth all the taxes that Granite would pay over the 75 year life of the project.
    I don’t know your level of education, but your level of thinking is not much above the current third grade level.

    Reply
  9. myth buster   August 6, 2009 at 1:17 am

    Guidant, as far as I know, already has vast filtration systems between each floor in the building, according to someone who I know that works there. There aren’t any cases of silicosis around ANY of the quarries that Granite operates. Why would they allow thousands of homes to be built around the Indio quarry, which is open pit? The Quarry here will be enclosed around the crushing.
    Whatever your level of education, you need to actually do some homework and not believe all the hype and conspiracy theories.

    Reply
  10. 3jinbfa   August 21, 2009 at 8:26 pm

    In case nobody noticed the unemployment rate is at an all-time high. We need jobs. Honestly I haven’t seen any other offers to employ the jobless so they can feed their families, pay their mortgages, etc.

    Reply
  11. Terry   September 10, 2009 at 11:58 am

    So, 3jinbfa, for 200 blue-collar jobs you would allow a business into your community that would lower property values, discourage prestige businesses from making Temecula their home and pollute the environment. Good call.

    Temecula has a branch of Guidant, obviously. But we also have home-grown business like Plant, the inventors of the 911 system, Professional Hospital Supply, Channell Commercial, FFF Enterprises, Opto 22, The Outdoor Channel and many other billion-dollar companies that grew up in Temecula. Think that their owners would have chosen Temecula as their home if it were a mining town? What do you think the odds of a prestigious and clean multi-billion dollar business setting up in Temecula after a mine moves in? Not likely. Think a few blue-collar jobs are worth the loss of thousands of higher paying jobs?

    I’ve lived in a town with a quarry in it. Property values and the tax base were always significantly lower than in the neighboring communities.

    Temecula is almost built out to its planned maximum housing. So, the quarry is to service the needs of San Diego County. If it’s so great, let San Diego host the quarry

    Reply
  12. Sam   October 17, 2009 at 7:52 am

    That land where the quarry is planned to be built is prestine. I have managed to hike there and on top of that mountain there is some remote, untouched valleys and forests. I am not an enviromentalist extremist, but I have lived in Temecula my whole life and find it disgusting that a quarry in that area is even being considered. Where is the power of the EPA when it’s actually needed.

    Reply
  13. Murrietan   November 14, 2009 at 11:06 pm

    The kinds of jobs that Liberty will add will be windshield replacement techs.My windshield has 1000’s of pits and three cracks from the current 15 Freeway. Imagine when more gravel, rock and sand trucks are added in. Have you taken a really good look at your windshield in sunlight lately?

    Reply
  14. Ted   December 23, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    Sounds like Jake is an employee of Granite and lives in the area. Wants to work close to home

    Reply
  15. Jake   December 23, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    Hmmm, Watts the Dr is not listed in the AMA directory. Interesting.

    Go Liberty !

    Reply
  16. Concensus   January 13, 2010 at 1:20 am

    Other cities who foster slow growth and preserve their hillsides have flourished financially. Look at Thousand Oaks, CA. Their house prices hardly dropped. A city worth investigating to see how they managed tax revenue, slow growth, natural preservation. Their property taxes are lower and yet their city thrives. How? Look at a city that has already done it. Also consistently one of the safest/nicest places to live in USA.

    Reply
  17. Country Girl   January 15, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    Most of us have always been very thankful and proud to be able to live and raise our family in such a beautiful healthy and
    safe environment. The majority of us moved away from an unattractive commercial environment to a beautiful, peaceful valley. Maybe some of them have forgotten why they came here years ago. We should not have this ugly threat hanging over us. It would be terribly sad to "sell out".

    Reply
  18. Truck Driver Paul   January 18, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Temecula Is a Quarry town Have you gone down (The real) Main St. Havent you see the Granit curb stones mined in the hills of Temucula? Sothern Ca. needs this site but my money is on the nimbys. Longer hauls, more polution, more expensive buildings, all that stuff. What seems like common sence ain’t so common.

    Reply
  19. Carol Malin   February 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    Researchers, led by Neil Bhattacharyya, MD, of the department of otology and laryngology at the Harvard Medical School, conclude that better air quality is "significantly associated with lower prevalence of pediatric ear infections." It was further stated that ear infections are one of the highest causes of infant morbidity due to the need for surgery to correct an ongoing problem. Germs attach themselves to particulates in the air and cause the infections. The particulate that may be distributed by the quarry would be a significant factor.

    Reply
  20. Bill   March 7, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Putting a large open pit quarry right next to a picturesque town, that should do wonders for Temecula property values.

    Reply
  21. Johnny   March 31, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Jake…..sounds as if you are an informed, concerned resident that is up to date with current events. Maybe this is relevant maybe it is not but did you ever sit in on any of the meetings DHL was having to describe their flight plans out of March RB? If you did you remember what the promises where from DHL and then later how they broke their promises and their response was sorry but we made an error and you have to live with it. Tax dollars? Non existent… Job creation? If you mean the jobs it will take to repair the roads the tucks will tear up then you are correct.

    Reply
  22. bp   May 2, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    Jake, I live in LB California and for reference I’m one of the those prospective home buyers considering pullling my contract because of the quarry. Why can’t they just build the quarry somewhere else where? The money they spend fighting and propaganda, they could’ve just moved on.

    Reply
  23. bp   May 3, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    Just for the record, we’re going through with our contract because we feel the quarry will be stumped and shut out. Jake, if you want to work at a quarry so bad, why don’t you just move to a quarry town?

    Reply
  24. Thalia Poulos   May 7, 2010 at 11:33 am

    Thank you to everyone for fighting to stop the Quarry. It takes time and energy. Yes, Granite has have deep pockets. And, Yes, we are passionate about stopping the Quarry. Obviously the more people who know about its negative affects, the better. The negatives far outweigh the small amount of jobs. And, as another commenter stated, those 100 jobs will still be created elsewhere. Let’s not let up on this issue.

    Reply
  25. pauline   May 11, 2010 at 9:38 am

    http://www.sos-hills.org/index.html

    Reply
  26. 3jnotinbfa   September 11, 2010 at 9:06 am

    Temecula needs jobs. Let the quarry proceed. Help stimulate the economy. There are more pressing issues that need our attention. Build the quarry!!

    Reply
  27. Phil   December 3, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    Wow, great debate. My guess is most of the people who commented would get along just fine if you met in a bar and had a beer and didn’t discuss the issue. As far as fines Granite has paid, it is real easy to get fined, even if you are trying your hardest to comply. If you’ve ever run a govt regulated business, you know what I am talking about. The main cost associated with heavy, bulk materials such as this quarry will generate is the delivery cost – the shorter the haul, the cheaper the cost. You can’t walk out of your front door without walking on something of the type of material this quarry will produce, so everyone needs it. It will damage the local area somewhat. Its a tradeoff, and certainly 100 jobs is nothing to sneer at. Decent and honorable people can disagree with each other.

    Reply
  28. HillBilly   February 7, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    I keep hearing about the 100 local jobs that Granite will bring to Temecula. I would like to take issue with that. Granite laid off 227 salaried employees in 2010, 150 salaried employees in 2009 and countless hourly employees. Knowing Granite’s stated concern for their employees, it goes without saying that laid off Granite employees would get first crack at the new jobs.

    THAT wouldn’t leave many jobs for local applicants, would it.

    In sum, with the environmental risks to Temecula, Rainbow and Fallbrook, future economic growth from other businesses jeopardized, and not even the touted 100 jobs to show for it.
    FUGEDABOUTIT!

    Reply
  29. Engineer   March 12, 2011 at 10:20 am

    1. Living in Wolf Creek Community, we do not need Liberty Quarry. I do not need a job, my hands couldn’t pick up a shovel. Also my neighbors already have jobs. I have a feeling that the jobs are low paying jobs, I would lose my house becuase I could not afford my mortgage.

    2. As for taxes, the Riverside County gets plenty of revenue from me and does not need a Quarry for money. Please check the tax rate in our area….

    3. I very proud to support nimbys. Nothing wrong about this…

    Reply
  30. A. ReginaldWwatts MD   June 25, 2011 at 8:47 pm

    Jake, for your information I am retired and see no reason to burden the AMA with keeping my membership current. You could easily have found that information if you had bothered to do any research. And go back to school – you need a little more than a third grade education to function in today’s society.
    For those who think Granite is such a fine company and gets fined for minor infractions look up some of the fines in Nevada. At least one of the Nevada enforcement bodies sees Granit as a serial, egregious and intentional offender who finds it easier and less expensive to pay fines than obey regulations.

    Reply
  31. Don't vote for anyone from Lake Elsinore they Love Aggregate Min   August 5, 2011 at 8:09 am

    Hey Guys: When it comes time to vote this year for State Assembly remember to not vote for the following people who are all about mining. They seem to not care about how it is harming we citizens in Lake Elsinore: Melissa Melendez, Bob Magee. Also don’t vote for these men running for Supervisor Kevin Jeffries, (for Supervisor), Jeff Stone (who supports Bob Magee for State Assembly), Bob Buster. Marrianne Edwards will be running for something soon, and remember to not vote for her. Phil Paule would be good in the Assembly seat and we hope everyone from Temecula, Wildomar and Murrietta vote Phil Paule.

    Reply
  32. daddyboy   October 29, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    B is right I live in elsinore an hate seeing that PIT. Don’t let it happen to you! Tell granit to go to the desert an mine for rock an sand!

    Reply
  33. Temecula/Rainbow   February 15, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Bring in the Quarry, 300 jobs either directly or indirectly related to the quarry is nice, but remember its all the colateral jobs, thousands more, that will help this whole area. Have any of you seen Rainbow recently, I live here, and let me tell you it looks like a giant junk yard. All the scenic routes go right past yards full of trash, junk cars and trailers and houses covered it tarp. Its a real eyesore and its anybodies wonder why temecula hasn’t said anything to San Diego about it. Ow yeah, San Diego barely registers its existance, as judged by how underfunded and run down the one public school here is. Hasn’t anyone seen the trash dumped along the scenic 395, if so nobody has done anything about it. The only decent views from Rainbow are of Pala Valley, not Rainbow with the 15 running through. My biggest concern is of the military base, why isn’t anyone else complaining about the helecopter flights that don’t follow any 9 to 5 restrictions, the lumbering convoys that bottleneck Fallbrook and gum up the freeway, the live fire exercises that run late into the night, or the controlled fires that almost always run rampant in our backyards. Being evacuated from fallbrook because of a fire that burned up to 200 feet from our old home was too much to take. Bring in the quarry, at the least it offers fire control access to De Luz, Rainbow, Northern Fallbrook and Temecula. As far as the NIMBYs go, their poluting and hurting this areas image with all the signs of protest, if you don’t like it then do a substancially larger portion of this regions population a favor and leave. No more pandering.

    Reply
  34. temecula/rainbow   February 15, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    Having built a number of military structures to house our troops, which were incredibly expensive because they are predominantly concrete and block but built to last, I can proudly say that all the cities that exist along this short corridor are military towns. This is where a lot of our troops live, but where are they going to live if there are no living wage jobs here when a large number of them receive their discharges? They’ll leave and then this SW region will lose more tax generated income. Empty houses on your block are what IS driving down your homes values. A quarry to generate jobs, not just the estimated 300, can’t hurt your homes value as much as not having enough living wage jobs to BUY those empty or rented houses will do. Congratulations to those who have recommended supporting the tech sector idea for local jobs, but has everyone forgotten that all areas of funding for this is scraping rock bottom. Tax revenues generate research and development funding to the technology sector. As for the quarrys proposed location…unless you fly over the 15 daily, you’ll never see it. If you do fly over it though, have a thought on how much more unsightly the Rainbow/Temecula corridor is, especially the junk yard, err…I mean RV storage. Think on it.

    Reply
  35. route 66   February 13, 2013 at 5:13 am

    Jake Harry n Bob (and anyone else who’s commented multiple time with extended "strings" ) need to meeet at the Broken Yoke..or..other.local restaurant and solve the Earth’s problems…getta’ life- doodes! Be a part of the solution..notthe ePollution..!

    Reply
  36. yes who are they?   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    It’s one thing to say there are 60 doctors and not have to put their names in print. It’s another to say thousands of people oppose this with out having to name them either. These SOS folks never have to prove anything, just say what they want. And you don’t dare say you are for the quarry or they will attack you.

    Reply
  37. j   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Who are the 60 Doctors and what is it they are saying? I don’t want the quarry here either, but how do you stop them? Lets get facts to fight on.

    Reply
  38. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Someone who tells others – "search google.com for liberty quarry" to back up his statements does not know how to defend his own "position" – much like the RM folk who terrorize Murrieta, and now the SOS folks who look to terrorize Fallbrook and Temecula.

    SOS is nothing but NIMBY’s gone wild – the quarry will purchase the land, create jobs and tax revenues and be a good corporate citizen. The NIMBY’s, the SOS, and RM are the true villians – only concerned about their own agenda.

    Reply
  39. Concerned Citizen   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Search google.com for "liberty quarry" to learn more

    Reply
  40. Larry B.   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Granite

    Reply
  41. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    I’m more for taxes into the city accounts and jobs for citizens than I am for birds.

    SOS, RM = people with too much time on their hands.

    Reply
  42. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake is the guy from "Friends of Libery Quarry".

    Reply
  43. Bob   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    It’s all a smoke screen. The quarry doesn’t produce but 100 new jobs. Abbot/Guident produced 3,000 jobs, now that’s progress.

    There’s supposed to be less air pollution because of closer proximity to San Diego there will be less truck traffic. Folks, use your senses, less trucks equates to less truck drivers, less driving jobs. They won’t bring new/more jobs to the area. If anything it’ll be a push.

    Don’t pick-up the candy Granite throws at your feet. It’ll make you sick later!

    Reply
  44. B.   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Take two drives-
    1. Go south on the 15 and look at the gorgeous hillside above the Santa Margarita River. Native chapparell mixed with huge rock formations. It’s lovely.
    Then-
    2. Drive north, up to Lake Elsinore just past the Outlet Mall, on the east side of the freeway, and take a look at a quarry in full production.
    After you do that, feel free to tell us how a quarry is so good for our beautiful area.

    Reply
  45. Bob   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    The working hours Granite is shooting for is from 4am to 12 midnight. Of course then don’t mention that if they get a freeway contract they’d become a 24 hr. quarry. They’ll be working thru the night.

    Also, when they are supposedly closed at 12 midnight, that’s when the work crews fix the broken equip. before they reopen. Welders and metal workers banging away.

    Reply
  46. Thanks Temecula Mom !   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Read all the articles about Irwindale. It’s interesting.
    http://www.savevantassel.com/sgvtribunearticle11.html

    Reply
  47. temecula mom   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    If anyone is interested in what a gravel quarry town looks and feels like then look no further that Irwindale. It is the sadest place on earth and it should be one of the loveliest. The mountains spill down and a river runs through…but my oh my… what an awful sight the quarrys make and do not clean up. The folks who live there have no good air to breathe and have high incidents of ashma. There is a council woman there called Loretta Sanchez who has been fighting the Quarrys effect on the citizens there for years. I for one really hope we do not ever get a quarry here.

    Reply
  48. interesting web site   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    http://www.savevantassel.com/sgvtribunearticle1.html

    Reply
  49. Clyde   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    This is a synopsis of how it works with quarry

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  50. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Hey Bob – how do you know how many jobs the quarry will bring? I, for one, find tax dollars in the coffers, local employment for Temecula citizens and a good economic citizen to be much more beautiful then some scrub brush on the "Plateau". An activist City Council will take steps to save a hillside, but won’t take the same "aggressive" steps to bring a hospital online. What, didn’t Rancon get a piece of the hospital contract?

    Reply
  51. Bob   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Granite has stated it will bring only 100 new jobs with a few supervisor/ manager positions.

    Reply
  52. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    So Bob – how many jobs does not having Granite there produce? I’d rather take 100 jobs then scrub brush…I’m sure the business’s in Temecula would rather have 100 more consumers or 100 better paid consumers. I’m all for Granite. SOS – please, go away, and save us from yourselves.

    Reply
  53. Bob   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    There’s hundred’s of studies paid for by various countries and that are held in the SDSU preserve that will cease or not go into effect because of the close proximity to the quarry, not to mention the knowledge of those studies in learning how not to screw up the planet we live on.

    Jake with your way of thinking, every square inch of natural habital should be somehow making a buck. How sad.

    Jake, sounds like you hate living in the country. Plenty of asphalt jungle elsewhere.

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  54. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Bob –

    Sorry I’m not a "sky is falling/global warming/Gore is god" lemming. I’m sure whatever SDSU is doing up there can be done elsewhere. I imagine we can survivie somehow if they are forced to relocate those important studies and it begs the question, if it’s SDSU doing them, how important can they be?

    I do believe in the buck over scrubbrush – everytime. There is nothing I hate about living in the country – I hate NIMBY’s with too much time on their hand standing in the way of progress.

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  55. Joe   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake, please crawl back under that rock you came out of and stay the hell out of my back yard.

    The community doesn’t want the quarry, and you’re not going to get it. Period.

    Dig your hole somewhere else.

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  56. Bob   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    The point I was making was that foreign currencies (which are now worth more than our buck) are being pumped into this country via testing and foreign students flying in and spending their monies. That will ceased with the studies. Your mindset was 100 new consumers with the quarry.

    I never mentioned Gore and global warming. But there is no other place as the Margarita Ecological habitat in Calif., but I’m sure there are other places to relocate a quarry! Good point you made about that.

    And a thicket of chaparral is as god created it as much as a stand of redwoods. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    I’m finished here Jake. Good luck on your life.

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  57. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Bob and Joe –

    Joe – your kidding me, right? You and your SOS old tymer’s think your going to stop it? Your wrong. And Bob – you made a joke of your argument with your god created chaparral line.

    SDSU foreign students spending money where? In Temecula – nope. I’ll take the quarry and the tax revenues any day. At the end of the day, money talks, and SOS, well they walk. See ya later – y’all leave when it goes in right?

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  58. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake;

    Comments coming from an apparently sour person who hates the idea of higher education and bashes everything he can tag as liberal and who has it out for what you call scrub brush, your opinion gets weaker with every comment made.

    I can see you belly aching if after the quarry went in about one thing or another about the quarry, it’s who you are.

    I used to hunt deer in these hills and they’ve since dissapeared with the fire of 69.

    I know you environmentalists out there may not understand this, but as an old hunter I’d like to see wild areas left untouched with hunting restrictions to keep the flora and thriving. A quarry is not going to help any of this.

    And Jake, I think you’ve been belly aching most of your life about everything.

    Reply
  59. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake, to heck with the tax revenues, you know dang well the taxes will be blown on some wasted project.

    Tax, tax, tax, always needing more tax. Never enough! Keep on scraping the land for more taxes.
    Like L.A. has done. Now look at L.A. all business and no more scrub brush all concrete. AND GUESS WHAT, they still need more tax reveues.

    Reply
  60. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Well, Harry, since you have such a good reference of who I am, never even having met me, I’ll take your comments for what they are worth – nothing.

    Why would I "bellyache" if the quarry went in – you can tell from my comments I’m all for it. I’m also all for the waterpark in Temecula, something else the NIMBY’s oppose. So tell me again, why would I "bellyache". Btw Harry, that’s my new favorite word – thanks !

    I don’t hate the thought of higher education – I hate the thought of SDSU being represented as higher education :) We all know it’s nothing but childcare extended from Palomar to San Diego. And I’m truly not a liberal – and your right. I care little about scrubbrush or chaparral or mountainlions or deer or ecological diversity. Not my bag, Harry.

    I care about letting Temecula flourish with new tax dollars. I care about bringing jobs to the area, not bringing back the fuzzy animals. I care about CORPORATE partners and neighbors, not NIMBY’s who oppose every little thing that pops up.

    Reply
  61. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Harry, I agree – the tax revenue most likely will be wasted – on conservation bridges for cougars, on delaying the hospital that is so badly needed to have to go thru some more EIR hoops, wasted on some "green" project.

    And having grown up in LA, I can tell you that there is plenty of rural land in LA. And of course they need more taxes – they are a growing city. Nothing wrong with that ideal, unless of course your Fallbrook that wants to keep everything like it was in 1945.

    Progress is a good thing Harry – get out of it’s way. I’m sure you can find some chaparral to hug someplace other than where the quarry is going to go. Say hi to the cougars for me – make sure they know about the new million dollar bridge the liberals want to build for them while we don’t take care of our own freeway problems.

    Reply
  62. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    I came to the area because I found it business friendly – not restrictive. Granite, if they can purchase the land, has every right to build a quarry there.

    Wreck a communities character? Oh please – communities that are thriving, with full tax rolls, can have character. Slow growth is nothing but a way of saying "i got mine, everyone else, sorry – go somewhere else". So you came here and now that it’s the way YOU want it, everyone else can go pound sand? Nice attitude.

    If they chose to not put the Quarry there for financial reasons, so be it. But that is their call, not yours.

    Reply
  63. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    I used to live in East L.A. and as far as I’m concerned it has already grown and needs repair.
    I moved to the Rainbow Temecula because I was tired of the city, tired of the noise, filth, attitude. I used to get physically sick/nausea from the smog in the 60’s. Came down here to blue skies and stars.

    Yeah, I’m for slow growth, wild spaces. I used to like to hunt the area. Leave the overgrowth to the urban areas. I’d even like a nice clean trout stream to fish.

    And Jake taxes are wasted on a whole slew of other things. And I don’t hug nothing but my wife.

    Guys like you need to get out of the way and let a community keep it’s character and not wreck it for a buck.

    Hospitals are fine, waterparks are fine, quarries aren’t. Out of character to the area with one that size.

    Also, we won’t be needing more aggregate as Granite as proposed. They were going by the boom figures, as if that was likely to happen. Now with the housing mess and with gas there’s supposed to be 40% less cars on the roads when gas hits near $6.00 their importance has sunk. Their stock is falling. They have Rosemary’s mountain.

    The next step. Buy Granite stock and vote on the proxies.

    Jake. What brought you to the area?

    Reply
  64. JJ   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake your a dying breed. Next few years are only going to get greener. Granite’s going to fail. Count on it.

    Reply
  65. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Temecula has a strong tax base. Even with the housing mess, Temecula pulls in strong being a newer neighborhood without prop 13 dominating as in L.A.

    If you believe the quarry will help benefit Temecula, then you must believe annexation would be in Temecula’s best interest regarding tax revenues and not have tax revenues to be used in saving an armpit of an area within Central Riverside who screwed up with bad planning chasing the mighty dollar over community.

    Temecula has been a family friendly community for a few decades if a quarry goes in, the taxes lost in real estate will drop. If you say no, I know from personal experience many have shyed away from real estate properties in the last year on a simple disclosure of a possible quarry going in. No matter how much B.S. Granite tries to feed the public. Property values will drop and tax revenues will drop and Granite’s tax revenues will go to the county and not Temecula which will take the brunt.

    Reply
  66. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    "that it’s the way YOU want it, everyone else can go pound sand? Nice attitude."

    People don’t save money in life to move and have kids in quiet neighborhoods so that one day they might be lucky enough to live next to to the train tracks or in this case a quarry. And to have it forced down our throats after the fact makes your above statement more on your end then ours.

    By the count of this comment section your the only one for it. The gist of the article should have been cause for a flood of pro comments. Peopled angered by this article about Granite in panic don’t exist. The writing’s on the wall. You need to leave, not us.
    Your willy nilly anything goes for a buck is prehistoric and the outcomes usually end with someone asking "What boob okayed to put that thing there!"

    JJ – Your right about what you said, people are getting green conscience and grow more by the day. If it goes in full swing and becomes the new wave Granite is going to have a hard sell about ripping open a mountain next to one of the nicest areas in Riverside county along the 15 corridor, next to a wildlife preserve.

    To the Supervisors – Don’t let petty jealousy’s make you want to trash a neighborhood out of spite from having been stuck in not so nice central Riverside. Don’t feed off of Temecula’s prosperity. You might wreck that prosperity and it’s tax base for the county.

    Reply
  67. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    The above aimed at Jake.

    Reply
  68. Over a year of neglect   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    http://www.deq.state.or.us/news/prDisplay.asp?docID=2439

    Reply
  69. Bob   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    So much for Granite’s integrity. You can call those folks in Oregon if you need more Jake.

    http://www.myvalleynews.com/story.php?story_id=30468

    Reply
  70. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Harry, without data showing where buyers have backed out of deals because of the quarry, it’s just that much more SOS propaganda. My family is in realestate in Tem/Murriet and have not heard a SINGLE incident of this kind.

    Do you have data to back up any of your so called facts? So because the Pro Granite people are not on this quasiNewspaper means that’s the sentiment of the public? Could you find a less credible way to call out support for your point of view?

    And I stand by my statement – slow growth is nothing but "I was here first, you have to respect me above anything else" – typical small town mentality. Look at how well that’s working for Fallbrook.

    I hope Granite goes in and does exactly what they say they are going to do – run a business, employ 100 or so people (Harry, how many do you employ again?) and not create the end of the world. Then what will SOS have to cry about? Maybe they cry about the ugly illegal signs they put up on the side of the freeway….

    Green is nothing but a fad – the "myth’s" of green are being knocked down everyday.

    Reply
  71. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    "Green is nothing but a fad – the "myth’s" of green are being knocked down everyday."

    Sorry Jake, just the opposite. Just with the rate of melt of the polar ice caps is enough to ring the alarm.

    Even if geen was a fad doesn’t matter. It’s a matter of perception therfore it is.

    And it’s Granite trying to shove it down our throat’s! Don’t paint anyone against it as the villain.

    I never said I don’t have data. Our offices keep track. And I find many realltors in other offices conveniently not mentioning the quarry to customers. Gee, I wonder why? And when as a customer we ask, we’ve seen so many say, "Oh, oh yeah, the quarry. I doubt it’s look like it’s going in."
    Myself and others have never heard, NOT ONCE, "Oh yeah the quarry, it’s a great thing for Temecula", because they know it won’t fly.

    I see you shied away from no comment on Temecula’s already strong tax base or annexation. You say you came to the area because of no restrictions. You want to be in more control of your own business. Well, so does Temecula.

    "Mommy, some day if I’m lucky enough, when I grow up, I have dreams of living next to a rock quarry." Yes son, if God shines down on you and you save up enough money, maybe you can, though remember, so does everyone else! You have to wait your turn in line. Everything flourishes and is actually healthier living next to a quarry!

    Get off it Jake.

    Reply
  72. Bob   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Found more on other Granite fines.
    http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/10/02/news/californian/21_54_4410_1_05.txt

    Reply
  73. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Oh Harry, please. We both know that Al’s PowerPoint presentation was nothing but a fraud and that global warming is being found out to be a cyclical enviromental event, not one of man’s hands.

    So you mislead your customers by saying you "doubt" it’s going in – well, there’s some ripe info for those who turn to sue you for not disclosing what you, by your own admission, call a negative. Great business practice.

    I didn’t shy away from anything – Temecula does have a strong tax base and will need an even stronger one to weather the upcoming hard times we face. Why would we turn away growth? I didn’t come here because of NO restrictions – I cane because of less restrictions – same reason Granite chose their land – it made sense for their business.

    Temecula is not a business that the CC or you are in charge of – it’s a town with ELECTED leaders, who serve all, not only the small SOS contigent.

    I bet the Quarry does go in – they can outspend Temecula, SOS and the County and still win….if they must.

    Reply
  74. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake said;"So you mislead your customers by saying you "doubt" it’s going in – well, there’s some ripe info for those who turn to sue you for not disclosing what you, by your own admission, call a negative. Great business practice."

    We don’t practice what I’d mentioned before. I said we, as customers, go into properties as buyers and feel the waters. Maybe one of your establishments?

    And there’s ice caps melting as they’ve been has never happened since we’ve known of the ice caps.

    Granite was just recently fined in Oregon $240,000.00 for not doing what they promised . Temecula doesn’t need business neighbors like that.

    Granite leases the land and doesn’t buy it straight out so they’ll be able to walk away when their spending doesn’t pay off.

    Goodbye Jake! Your kind is on it’s way out.

    Reply
  75. Bob   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Upcoming hard times? Construction companies are hit the hardest. Their need diminishes.

    Reply
  76. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Harry, I’m fairly certain I’ve not heard of ONE verifable case of someone not buying in Temecula because of the threat of the Quarry. If you can produce DATA (unlike your "list" of doctors that never gets published) that might be different.

    Google "global warming myths" – it’s being debunked more every day – only the hippies and Sierra Club and AG buy into that anymore.

    And if a company being fined makes it a bad corporate citizen, then we have a bunch of companies we should run out of town, right? Or is it those you pick and chose?

    And even if they did lease the land, who cares. It’s just more rock and scrub – it’s not coastline, it’s not waterfalls and creeks – its just rock and scrub. It is the best kind of rock and scrub, I’ll give you that – it’s the kind you can turn into greenbacks !

    Sure I’ll see you in that traffic jam fleeing when the quarry opens…see ya later !

    Reply
  77. Janet   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    I am all for the quarry that Granite is wanting to do. You all don’t understand that the sidewalks, driveways and roads that you walk and drive on are all from a quarry…. Even though some of you that live in a half a million dollar homes and would hate to be bothered. Where do you think they got all that concrete to build your big house, and what about the asphalt for your driveway? and what about the asphalt that you drive on everyday to go shopping or to work, where in the world do you think it comes from…. Wake Up people… why should we pay more for material eles where when we can get it from our own back yard. And for Jobs… oh hell yes there will be jobs for alot of people. Fallbrook is not a precious place that it can’t help southwest riverside residence. Also Granite has a quarry and many other offices in Indio hummm that is real close to Palm Springs and it hasn’t hurt them at ALL.
    MORE POWER TO YOU GRANITE.

    Reply
  78. cramitgranite   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    jake and janet, step up to the bar. Granite is pissing down your leg and telling you it’s drinking water

    Reply
  79. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Wow, cramitgranite – that’s an almost funny name. How about ShutUpSOS – SUSOS.

    I welcome Granite to the area – an unintended side effect maybe the removal of the entire NIMBY population of Temecula. That’s priceless !

    Just to make sure cramit, that we understand your position…you were ok with some quarry someplace else doing all the negative things you CLAIM Granite is about to do while companies like Granite were supplying materials for the roads, freeways, and even your home, and now that you have yours, everyone else can, to borrow a phrase, "cram it" ? Do I state your position clearly ?

    Once again SOS has nothing but empty rhetoric for their arguements. Granite will come in, they’ll be a good corporate citizen and everyone will be happy – as we wave goodbye to all the NIMBY’s….

    Reply
  80. Jim   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    I’m curious where you folks think the rock that goes into roads, sidewalks, railroads, sewer pipelines, etc should be mined?

    The amount of this material that’s needed is obviously based on infrastructure needs (people don’t just pile rock up in their yards). Granite isn’t out selling this stuff to people on the street…they wouldn’t mine it if there was no demand.

    I understand concern about the mining being near your homes or one of your favorite viewscapes but I have not seen anyone suggest a viable alternative mining location.

    Reply
  81. Joe F.   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Seriously Jim? You can’t think of any other place on this earth, away from residential areas, where one could mine for ROCK?

    Go ahead, I’ll let you think about that one…

    Reply
  82. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Joe, seriously – show me how close home REALLY are. They’re not mining at the corner of Ynez and 79, it’s pretty far back in the woods.

    And am I to understand that anywhere but near you would be fine? Nice attitude you SOS folks have..

    Reply
  83. Joe F.   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake, you don’t live in Temecula do you…

    I live in south Temecula. Every day we have prevailing winds that blow from west to east through the rainbow gap. That means any dust or particulates that get tossed in the air blow right into our city, our homes and our lungs. The mine couldn’t be in a more ridiculous place. So yea, that’s close enough to home for me.

    Why is that so hard for you to understand? You can’t sit there and honestly say you would live anywhere near an open pit mine.

    Look at this map:

    http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=33.452498~-117.135544&style=r&lvl=14&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=6655972&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

    The edge of the mine is less then a mile from residential areas. You cant tell me for one second that blasts won’t be heard at that range. Its a flat out lie.

    Reply
  84. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Looks fine to me – I see very little housing within a mile or so of the mine. And odds are you won’t hear a thing with the way the hills distort sound..

    And yes I do live in Temecula ……most likely here for longer than you….

    Reply
  85. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Hey Jake, you still there. Had to track down this article in hopes of pointing out another crooked thing about granite. San Diego’s investigating Granite for overcharging the County of San Diego millions for the Rancho Bernardo fire clean up. Ha!

    And no Jake, not all companies run like that. Only the crooked ones and those crooked people who support crooked ideas. Like you!

    Reply
  86. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    FROM JANET;Wake Up people… why should we pay more for material eles where when we can get it from our own back yard.

    Do you really think you’ll pay less for aggregate from a company that does it’s best to overcharge.

    EX; Does the price of your drought water go down in years of plentiful rainfall.

    Will the price of gas go down ever if more drilling occurs? Not really. Small fluctuations.

    Prices will be kept at what the market will bear and Granite is just the kind of company to find reasons to keep it inflated. They do their best to look like good neighbors, like Enron. Besides, even if the aggregate is cheaper the contractors will absorb the profit and the homeowner will see nothing. WAKE UP JANET you sound like a naive housewife. Unless of course you or your husband is a contractor. Even then I don’t think Granite will give you the profit when they can suck it up for themselves.

    Reply
  87. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Ah, Harry – the SOS favorite son of tactics. Throw unsupported information out and hope no one checks it. Got any facts – if you find some, share it with CramIt, would ya? He needs them as bad as you do.

    And I love it – SOS knows what an overcharge for material is? Please – as if your in the industry and know the numbers. How can you comment on their pricing? Or should we get rid of contractors too – that is, now that SOS has the roads they drive on built, the houses they live in built. Now, and only now, can the people that SOS doesn’t like get slammed – once SOS has theirs.

    Typical SOS – only concerned with themselves, and no facts to back up their statements.

    Reply
  88. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    If anyone’s still out there, your gonna love this. Camp Pendelton might buy up all the land.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080823/news_1m23buffer.html

    Reply
  89. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Where in the SignOnSanDiego article is that land mentioned? Please, show us some facts Harry….facts, data, reproducible statements/numbers……

    Reply
  90. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Oh, by the way, that thing in Oregon, Granite lost and had to pay the fine and correct the problem. The problem that was promised wouldn’t happen in the first place.

    So it puts into question all the tremendous promises being made about Liberty Quarry. You know the ones that promise not to have an effect on anything. Won’t be noticed. 700 trucks a day, rock crushers, 2 asphalt plants, need to widen the Rainbow offramp and overpass being a major hub, noise, air, water. "We promise you won’t know we’re there" Yeah, and I have some swampland in Florida.

    And the fines; Just bump up the price of aggregate.

    Reply
  91. HARRY   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Read the article. Look at the map of the target areas. Putz.

    I hope Granite is paying you enough to work there web filters for them.

    Reply
  92. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Here’s how Granite overcharges. Weight tickets is one way.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080810/news_1n10debris.html

    Reply
  93. Joe F.   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake, Harry is completely owning you.

    So if the city doesn’t get the land, the Marines will. Awesome.

    Reply
  94. Jake   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    So now your more concerned about how Granite charges or about the enviroment – you’ll slam the company any which you can, won’t you..

    If Camp Pendleton buys it, so be it. Can’t wait till the unpatriotic SOS begins to complain about the noise and dust from training our fine Marines, saying "we" were here first….

    Reply
  95. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Your right I’m concerned how Granite cheats on it’s trumped up scrap weight tickets or dumps sediment in a trout river when they promised not to. In doing so, their promises are empty on any other matter.

    And Camp Pendleton was there first and long before SOS and SOS hasn’t a pot to pee in regarding complaining about the base.

    Jake, your sure hooked on these SOS people. I’m not sure how they became unpatriotic by your measurements though.
    They fight against a rock quarry and they become unpatriotic? Your getting loopy.

    Does the name Liberty Quarry actually make you stop and salute the flag from the name?
    Are you that shallow and easily fooled.

    My property’s name is America and I salute it everyday. How’s that!

    Reply
  96. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    I’ve only heard SOS complain about the quarry, not about the base, even at the community meetings I’ve attended.

    I’ve only heard list upon list of promises by Granite. Things that regard my personal life, things that I know are impossible in which I’ll hold close to my chest until the necessary time comes.

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  97. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    One more thing Jake.
    All you have to do is Google "Granite Construction Violations" and YOU can research for yourself instead of crying about having to google anything about liberty quarry. Bahhh!

    You are able do that, aren’t you Jake?

    Reply
  98. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake,

    Your argument is getting weaker and so far people have given ways in which to research their point of view while you’ve given NOTHING , but sour bile and narrow mindedness. Your an empty argument with shallow rebuttals. Basically, your a waste of my time.

    Your patriotisim is at question, supporting a corrupt enterprise at the expense of the law abiding citizens trying to get by with valid concerns of their lives and investments or the environment in which they raise families.

    Reply
  99. Harry   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    There’s an old political saying that’s come to light in recent days that fits Granite Construction/Liberty Quarry and it’s ways of promising everything in the heavens and trying to look like the nice guy:

    "If you put lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig."

    Reply
  100. Joe F.   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Nicely done Harry! Jake is going to need to get a restraining order out against you. lol

    Reply
  101. Steve   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Jake, you just need to pack your bags and go somewhere where your bull**** will be believed. You and everyone at Granite are wasting your time here in Temecula. I bet your even voting for Obama, what a fool you are. As I see it, Granite Construction and Obama have much in common. Lack of patriotism, promises they don’t intend to keep, money grubbing greediness, and surrounding them selves with crooks that have no conscience. Temecula has no room for unpatriotic greedbags like granit and Obama, that’s another reason we LOVE and appreciate our Marines at Camp Pendlton and why there wouldn’t be much complaint against them should they buy the land. They would get the support form us in a blink of an eye for whatever purpose they need it for. The Marines are good stewards of the environment and can be trusted with it. Granit can’t be trusted, it’s that simple and you are juast wasting your time trying to convince people otherwise. Yea, you might find one or two who will drink your kool-aid, but they too will come around to know the truth so I’m not much worried about your influence here. The American people here in Temecula aren’t as stupid as you had hoped are they Jake? That must be pretty irritating for you I imagine, and that’s a good thing. Hey, you should hang out with Gavin Newsom! You both have equally idiotic ideas and are just being used as mouthpieces for someone elses agenda. He has had some really hard reality checks lately too. Bye Jake! Don’t let the door hit ya on the way up to the bay area haha…

    Reply
  102. Don   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Their is no need for any political comments. The thousands of people against the quarry, including many doctors,are from different politcal associations,and politics have nothing to do with it. It’s just common sense that this is NOT the place for a quarry, and if it’s facts you want, just use your computer skills, there are plenty of facts out there. The biggest fact of all, being that, the people DO NOT WANT A QUARRY inthis area.

    Reply
  103. Rainbow   February 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    The "BANGO list" (Businesses and Non Profit Groups OPPOSING the quarry) as well as the list of MDs is available for anyone to see on http://www.nogravelquarry.com and http://www.sos-hills.org
    The WINERIES are now getting involved as well…
    See for yourselves how the opposition is growing.
    This quarry is NOT welcome and belongs somewhere else where the quality of life of so many people, including children in FOURTY schools, is threatened,

    Reply

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